Good morning. We were blessed with another beautiful day yesterday! I had a chance to get lots of outside work done and get the garden prepped. Hopefully today is planting day! But, we need rain! It is surprisingly dry!
Today's reading are some instructions/ protocols for public worship and the ways women should dress and act! Let's see what Paul has to say about that!
The most important thing Paul starts with is prayer for others (v 1). We have talked about this topic several times- praying for others. We all know the impact prayer has, and it is evident that Paul understands that too! And it is prayers for all people, from the emperor to the commoner! It is "easy" to pray for our family, but for our enemies or people that are different from us? Re: emperors (some translations say rulers)- the church was accused of undermining political authority as they claimed Christ higher that Caesar; prayer was a way to point out that they were supporting the emperor! Do we pray for all people- or people that are like us? I like that Paul lists what we should pray for/about: supplication, intercession, and thanksgiving. Our prayers should have an evangelical purpose- God wants all people to be saved (vv 3-4). We are reminded though that there is one way to God- and that is through Jesus (vv 5-6). Regardless of the prayers that we pray, people still need to accept God through Jesus. Paul adds in the humanity of Christ (v 5), so we have some commonality with Christ! Paul ends this section with the reminder that he was chosen to deliver the Gospel message to all people- Jews and now especially the Gentiles (v 7).
Obviously, men are the only qualified leaders for worship as Paul comments on that in v 8! So, for those of you that question women as pastors- here is the proof! (I am totally kidding here by these statements!) It is interesting that Paul comments the appropriate position for prayer is standing with hands lifted to the sky- not huddled and face down as we do it now. Why do we pray like that rather than hands outstretched and face to the heavens? I also like that Paul adds "without anger and arguments" (some translations say doubt). If we are angry or are arguing or have doubts of faith- how can we adequately pray?
I'm sure these next sets of verses is going to open a can of worms! I think you all know my stand on women/men and equality. For the record- and this is Paul the farmer, retired teacher, grandpa, father of two daughters (one gay, one straight) talking- not necessarily Paul the pastor talking...I am a firm believer in equality of the sexes. Physically, there are things women can do that men can't do and things that men can do that women can't- but we are equals! Spiritually and mentally, we are equal. I actually think women have a higher spirituality than men, but we can discuss that some other time!
And now for the part we have waited for- how women should act in worship! The idea here is spiritual beauty and preparation rather than physical beauty and preparation for worship. Propriety and moderation (v 9)! Not too fancy, not too common; not too much, not too little. The way you dress reflects your heart and attitude- too casual means a casual attitude toward God, too fancy means you are trying to be equal or above God. Good works is the best adornment for women- rather than gold or pearls or jewelry (v 10). Any comments???
Now that women are in church with men, they need to be submissive and quiet (v 12). This is a throwback when women were separated; they would often shout questions that they wanted answered and would thus "upset the flow of worship"! To be honest- I like when people ask questions when I am preaching/teaching! It lets me know someone is listening! Paul continues saying tat women cannot lead worship (v 12). Unfortunately, this thought has continued today in some churches that have women pastors. My mom believed that women should not be pastors- I don't know where or how she got that idea (as we weren't church people growing up), but when they would visit, we would go to church and she would comment- "I don't think women should be pastors!" Some people, even today, use these words as "evidence" that the Holy Spirit has a clear definition and separation of the roles of men and women! There obviously has been a shift from the "traditional" roles, but there are some people in our culture that fight that and continue to believe that women should be silent and submissive! (Obviously, not me!) Paul says the reasoning is simple- God made Adam first- therefore men are superior (v 13). Re: the story of Adam and Eve- it was written by a man! Had Eve been made first- I wonder how different the Bible would be? And it was Eve's fault that sin is on the earth (v 14) because she listened to the serpent! Oh, Eve- how could you do that to us all-powerful men (just kidding!!). The last verse is probably the most difficult in the Bible (that I have come across). One interpretation- if a woman continues in faith, love and holiness- she will be blessed with children. What about faithful but childless women, women of faith who decide not to have babies (nuns, etc), what if a woman dies in childbirth? Some people look at the word "saved" and translate that to salvation- so the only way for a woman to receive salvation is through children? So the role of women is child bearing and the role of men is preaching! Really tough words to interpret. The difficulty continues as we see some denominations and cultures focus on these things.
OK- let's put the worms back in the can for today!
Enjoy the reading! And enjoy the day- before some well needed rain comes this afternoon.
Shalom+
Pastor Paul
Oh my! I do like that Paul reminds us to pray - and pray for our leaders. I must confess, I don't think I have ever prayed specifically for our leaders (except in church when there is a unison prayer and it's printed there). I will do that more often. I pray for people I know - same or different in any way - and ask for God's blessings on my "friends and enemies" - but do not list them by name unless there is something specific. In my translation vs. 4 Paul says "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." which seems a bit different from Paul's other letters that Paul has said that those saved are already chosen. ??? And we have had a lot of discussion on. I agree that good works is the best adornment for ANYONE (not just women), however, how a person dresses in today's world has not the same consequence. Those that only own gold and jewels, dress that way - it is normal for them - as long as they are not dressing to impress others or to show that they are better in some way. Again - men or women. However, verses 11-15 totally loose me - as God chooses those who will become pastors and have those gifts. I was a member of a church and member of the S/PPRC where a male member told me that the church responds better to a male pastor then a female. And to blame Eve for being deceived and leading Adam into it? tsk tsk I do think vs. 15 reflects the thinking of the day. Women who are strong in their faith will not die (that meaning of saved and not salvation) but live. Sadly some still think that bad things happen to people whose faith is not strong.
ReplyDeleteI hope you get your planting done and that we do have a nice rain!!
Adding specific names to prayers would definitely add a more personal aspect and also make us more cognizant of the people. Part of prayer, I think, is also thinking about people and calling/ checking on in them.
DeleteYou did pick up on a somewhat confusing part of this letter- the idea that Paul thinks people are chosen- which we have talked about, then he seems to backpedal and say all will be saved. I don't know how to respond to that one! I truly believe that God desires all people to be saved and that God does select all but not everyone accepts that invitation. Maybe that's how we can interpret Paul's words.
I think you are right about wearing gold and pearls- Paul was saying that you're not better than God so don't try to "dress to impress".
There are many firm believers that women should not be church leaders/pastors. I cannot wrap my head around that one at all! I know some good male pastors and some good female pastors; I also know some bad male pastors and some bad female pastors. I tend to build better relationships with women than men, but that's just me.
Well, Eve did tempt Adam! (JK!)
Great thoughts Donna
Paul reminds us that we all need to pray and not only for ourselves but for everyone even our enemies. I don't think that I remember to pray for our leaders and our enemies only occasionally when things are going on in the world that reminds me to do so. I need some help with that.
ReplyDeleteAt first when I read all that Paul wrote in this chapter about women my hackles rose up then I read the notes about this chapter and they went down.. In Paul's time women were treated and thought of differently than today but because they weren't as schooled then as we are now Paul did want them to learn but silently but learn nevertheless.
As far as clothing Paul didn't want women to dress to entice, we don't need to entice God with our dress he loves us just the way we are. However I thin we should dress to look the best we can without trying to look enticing or sexually enticing.
This about childbirth I think just pertains to women have trials of their own and men had trials of their own during Paul's time(women had the pain of labor and child rearing and men had pain of labor to work and earn a living) Things are different now than in Paul's era women work outside home and earn the living often and even men are stay at home dads while mom goes to work. I wonder what Paul would say nowadays
Oh, Clara, that did make me chuckle! I wonder what Paul would say if he saw us today!!
DeleteWomen were treated as second class citizens. One point is that there were intimately involved in the education of the children- especially with respect to religion!
DeleteDress is always a difficult topic. I think a good statement here is "dress for respect". Wear appropriate clothing and look good. God doesn't care if you wear jeans to church- just be sure they are clean, etc... One of the reasons clergy wear robes is so that the congregation doesn't focus on what the pastors are wearing, they focus on what they are saying. It takes the "visual stimulation" away.
I do wonder what Paul would think about today's world!
Good thoughts Clara
Well now, this is an interesting chapter. I agree with what Paul says about praying for others. And it is harder for me to pray for people that I don't like for whatever reason, and yes, there are some (phew...did I say that?)
ReplyDeleteJust an aside, this morning I visited my elderly neighbor who is my good friend. I told her about the passage about "mind your own business" and how much I have thought about that. She said that if you are minding your own business you're less likely to be judging others. I had to laugh. She was spot on with what we have been talking about.
Anyway, back to Paul. I think his comments were kind of a sign of the times that he lived. I agree with you, Pastor, that women and men are equal even though they each have different strengths, just like every person (male or female) has their own unique qualities.
The end of this chapter makes me remind myself again that Paul was a human like us. Maybe it was just his personal bias that he was expressing.
It is difficult to pray for people that we don't like! It is hard to pray for people different from us!
DeleteYour neighbor sounds like a wealth of wisdom! It is good that you have someone like that and she has someone like you!
Paul was certainly echoing the current culture. Women were thought of as second class citizens, and Paul certainly was able to back that up! It is relatively well known that he was not a fan of women, partially because of you had a woman in your life, you couldn't be focused on God! Women would take up too much of your time!
Good for us to remember- Paul was human, just like us!
Good comments Cathy. Thanks
On boy I'm sure you all know by now how I feel about these words.
ReplyDeleteI do think it is so important to pray for others. I always have a prayer list going. I have prayed for our leaders and for people I don't care for because I think I am truly praying for myself that the right decision for all be made and that I am able to accept it.
As for such harsh words about women...yes things are better but I still believe we have a long way to go. There are still countries in this world where women are not allowed to be educated or drive a car. In this country men want to tell a woman what to do with their bodies when they would never allow that for themselves.
Sorry this makes me a little crazy.
I continue to work on the not judging!
As far as we've come with women rights- we do still have a way to go, in this country and across the globe. I agree with that! I'm not ever sure where this separation even happened? What started it, it has been around for thousands of years!
DeleteWe're all a little crazy Cindy!
Sorry for my lack off a comment yesterday. Yesterday was a rough day for me and I just wasn't up to it last night. We did our reading as usual, though. I just want to offer that I feel that there is good in all people. I once listened to a NY State Trooper (off duty) who was convinced that some people had no good in them whatever. Now, I know he sees the worst of people, but I did too when I was on the Apalachin Emergency Squad. I still believe, however, that there is good in all people.
ReplyDeleteOn to today's reading. I see that times have changed since Paul's day and that woman is most countries can do what men used to do as a way of life. What I am saying, is now, women in most developed countries do as much as their male counterparts. I am all in favor of this (to avoid having too many rocks thrown at me!) and I think that this is the way God would want it. There are some exceptions, though. A fellow firefighter of mine (many years ago) said that if he were doing an interior attack on a fire, he wanted a man with him and not a woman. He said that woman do not have the physical strength of men for interior firefighting. I agree with him. He wasn't against woman in the workplace or doing most jobs at a fire scene, but this was one area that he was pointing out the biological differences between men and women. By the same token, there are jobs women do that men cannot, like nursing a baby, for instance.
What I don't agree with is in some area of the world where women have to stay covered up and cannot do much of anything outside of the home. There are customs of other countries, however, and even though I don't agree with it, it is their business and not mine.
This is how I feel and I am not saying this because the other bloggers are women.
Praying with our hands outstretched and looking to heaven sounds like a good way to pray. I was taught as a child to fold your hands and bow your head to pray. At my age, this would be a hard habit to break (you can't teach an old dog new tricks and all that). Really, I was a young child once. No cable and one TV station!
"...the role of women is child bearing and the role of men is preaching!" I do not agree. If a man and woman decide that they do not want children, that is their business and theirs alone. I believe that if a couple goes that way, however, that their "golden" years will be awfully empty with a very small or no family. I am so happy we had our 3 boys. They have brought us so much happiness. I wouldn't trade the world for our wonderful grandchildren. To me, this is what life is about. If couples disagree, I have no problem as it is not my business. If a family wants children, but is unable to conceive, for whatever reason, they have my deepest sympathies.
I would have no problem if I joined a church with a woman pastor. I don't see how a woman could preach any differently than a man.
I agree with your opening statement. I think every person has some good in them. In some people, it is evident; in others it somehow gets buried. What has happened in their life so that they bury the good?
ReplyDeleteI agree that women and men have different physical characteristics that make them "better suited" for some occupations. Women generally don't have the physical strength and size that men do; men often times don't have the patience and emotional strength (in my opinion) that women do.
When talking about other countries, it is hard to remember their culture may be different than ours. Different cultural styles does get us into disagreements at times.
Hahahaha! And you had to walk to school uphill both ways during a snowstorm- right?!
Life has a different fullness when children (and now grandchildren) are involved. There are many other aspects that can fill a person's life too
Good points Jack.